The Surprising Truth About Sugar Substitutes and Weight Gain

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Real-Life Insights and Takaways

  • There are multiple types of sugars and sugar substitutes available, as well as different messages telling us which sweeteners are okay for us.
  • The three main categories of sweeteners are:
    1. Natural caloric sweeteners which are natural and contain calories.  i.e. table sugar, honey, agave, etc.
    2. Un-natural, caloric sweeteners which are synthesized or produced in a lab. i.e. aspartame, sucralose, etc.
    3. Natural, non/minimally caloric sweeteners such as sugar alcohols and herbs. i.e. xylitol and erythritol, which are both a sugar alcohol, and non-caloric, sweet-tasting herbs such as stevia and lo han guo.
  • Scientific research shows that is xylitol is safe for you.
  • Sugar isn’t more “real” than other sweeteners. Xylitol, erythritol, and stevia are all found in nature.
  • It would be better to have a small amount of a natural sweetener than an artificial sweetener.
  • The test of time is the best way to validate a sweetener.
  • People used to always drink plain water, but now we expect everything to be sweetened.
  • Sweetness isn’t bad, but we shouldn’t be going out of our way to sweeten everything we eat.
  • Stevia doesn’t bake well. Xylitol and erythritol are better substitutions when baking.
  • Poison is dose dependent and we should be aware of how much of and what type of sweeteners we are consuming.
  • Use xylitol as a table sugar when needed.
  • If you think vegetables are gross, then your palate has changed over time. Sweet is not the only delicious flavor.
  • Eating SANE is a holistic approach.
  • As you eat more vegetables and protein you will feel satisfied and not be as hungry for sweets.
  • You can enjoy sweet when eating SANE, but the difference is you don’t depend upon eating sweet foods and learn how to make SANE substitutions that are equally satisfying.
  • Eating sweets is like getting a massage. It’s great, but you should be able to live without it.
  • You can consciously choose to eat the right sweets when you are craving something sweet.
  • You can over-stimulate your palate when you choose to eat something overly sweet.
  • Our bodies are capable of dealing with a lot of things, but they are not capable of eating processed food without resulting in diabetes, obesity, etc.
  • Years ago sugar was advertised as a way to increase energy because it was low-calorie and low-fat. We now know better.

SANE Soundbites

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  • 4:11 – 4:28, “There is no peer-reviewed scientific research I’ve seen that says that xylitol is meaningfully bad for you.  If you over-consume it, if you consume it in ways that are very difficult to do, it can cause digestive issues, because the sugar alcohol isn’t really digested.”
  • 4:52 – 5:23, “How is sugar real?”  Xylitol is no less real than cane sugar.  Xylitol is pre-existing in birch bark and they take it out of birch bark.  Sugar is found in sugar beets and sugar cane and they take it out.  Now, aspartame is so unnatural, but xylitol is natural, it is found in nature, they’re just concentrating it down because you don’t want to eat chunks of birch bark, like you don’t want to eat chunks of sugar cane.”
  • 6:09 – 6:50, “A general rule of thumb is, if it doesn’t have a track record, if it’s new, then it better have some crazy, compelling, peer-reviewed science saying that it’s not harmful, because I don’t care if it’s statins, I don’t care if it’s ephedra, I don’t care if it’s fen-phen.  A lot of these new things–the test of time is the best test you could ever have.  So, if you look at the test of time, consuming refined sweeteners, in any form, in the quantity that we’re consuming them in, is not good for you.”
  • 7:54 – 8:37 – “Sweetness isn’t bad.  There is a reason we have taste buds that like the taste of sweet.  But you’re right, going out of your way to sweeten a lot of things all the time with anything is probably not the best idea in the world.  If you want to do that, I would recommend xylitol, erythritol, lo han guo and stevia.  And there is not a best one, because it depends on what you’re doing.  You can’t really bake with stevia.  You need something with substance.  If you need a cup of sugar in a recipe and you swap in a half teaspoon of stevia, it completely mangles the recipe, so you have to use xylitol or erythritol in that case.”
  • 9:12 – 9:43, “In the traditional world, when people ate sweets, they were used as treats, so there wasn’t a pop tart for breakfast, there wasn’t 15 sodas throughout the day, and I know 15 is an exaggeration for some people.  Poison is dose-dependent.  You can die from over-drinking water.  It’s not as if, if you eat a tablespoon of sugar, you’re going to get diabetes.  Just like if you smoke one cigarette a year, you will not get lung cancer.”
  • 10:45 – 11:08, “I want to make something really clear.  Sugar is no more real than xylitol is. Honey, agave, and maple syrup are not more natural than erythritol, xylitol, stevia or lo han guo.  They are all things that are found in nature that are concentrated down.”
  • 11:11 – 11:35, “The only things that are artificial are artificial sweeteners that are produced in the lab, such as aspartame, such as Splenda, Sweet ‘n Low – those are artificial sweeteners – and if you had to choose between using a little bit of any natural sweetener – a little bit – or an artificial sweetener, I personally would recommend using a little bit of a natural sweetener rather than an artificial sweetener, just to clarify that.”
  • 11:37 – 11:52, “So now, what’s the transition?  The transition would be to swap in, I personally think, xylitol for table sugar.  Anything that you use anything else for, you swap in xylitol.”
  • 11:57 – 12:25, “Xylitol works the most like sucrose, which is the name for table sugar.  The next step would be erythritol because it is even SANEr from a caloric perspective and how it is processed in the body than xylitol.  Then you would transition to things like lo han guo and stevia, because that gets really hard because those are not big, they are not used gram for gram like sugar.”
  • 12:26 – 13:01, “But all the while, the more important thing is that the goal is to be able to derive enjoyment from food from flavors other than sweetness.  These are things to use as treats for enjoyment, and if you think vegetables are gross that means that your palate has changed, because bitter is a totally valid flavor and anyone who drinks alcohol, that’s a bitter thing that you really enjoy, so sweet isn’t the only delicious flavor, there are a lot of delicious flavors.”
  • 13:15 – 13:48, “I wasn’t really addicted to sugar so I don’t know personally how that is.  I ate a lot of sugar, but it wasn’t that hard for me to transition.  But what I found was that the more I started trying new vegetables, I love it that I can eat a lot of protein.  I have two salmon patties, or two cans of tuna sometimes.  I can eat Greek yogurt.  I am eating so much that, honestly, I’m not even hungry for all the desserts.”
  • 14:14 – 14:49, “This is a holistic thing, so as you start to eat more vegetables, as you are full, there are biochemical reasons why eating more protein and eating more vegetables in place of sugar and starch will make you crave those other things less and less and less.  It’s not just about, “Oh, get rid of sugar!”  It’s about crowding out the sugar.  And I want to be very clear, this is not anti-sweeteners.  I have a sweet tooth, my whole family does, and I eat sweet things every single day.  If I had to give up the taste of sweet to be healthy, I would probably be unhealthy because eating sweet things makes me happy.”
  • 14:49 – 15:30, “But the difference is, for me, and I think for a lot of people who have gone SANE, eating sweets is a little bit like getting a massage.  Getting a massage is awesome.  It feels really good and I like it, but it’s not like I can’t function unless I get a massage.  It’s a really cool thing, but my life isn’t dependent on it.  I can function without it.  I think a lot of us, when we have that sweetener addiction, it’s like, unless I have this I can’t function.  As you go SANE you’re going to transition away from that – not transition away from eating sweets, but transition away saying, “I’m going to consciously choose to eat these sweets, and then I feel great, and I feel good, and I move on.”
  • 18:19 – 18:56, “So, to take a pancake and to add something that is super sweet, what you are doing is you are creating something that is called hyper-palatability, and that is what causes over-eating.  It is so amazingly delicious that you can’t control yourself.  It is a little bit like when people over-stimulate their brains using illegal substances, it feels great and it is awesome, but it’s bad for you.  We just need to be very sensitive to that, balancing if it’s a treat and if I feel control over it…”
  • 19:26 – 19:52, “The body is super capable of dealing with a lot of things, but what it isn’t capable of dealing with is 40-60% of our calories every single day coming from inSANE processed nonsense, which is what the average American is subjected to.  So right now we’re talking about the 1%.  If you want to eat a little bit of actual sugar or whatever you want, very infrequently, you’ll probably be fine.”
  • 20:25 – 20:40, “What are we doing is starting to change the definition of what a sweetener is in the world, we are starting to shift to a healthier point of view, healthier frame of reference, healthier things on the dinner table, on the breakfast table, that we are giving to our kids, and I am thrilled to be a part of it.”
  • 20:47 – 21:49, “Part of the reason that this is going to be easier over time, and I mean that very intentionally, for the past 40 years, sweet was the only flavor we were allowed to have because salt was toxic and fat caused heart disease.  If you are in your 60s and 70s now you remember a time period in which sugar was advertised as a healthy way to increase energy, because it’s low in fat.  These fat-free lollipops are good for you. That’s gone. And when you start to enjoy things like whole food fats, and you start to enjoy protein, your are diversifying your palate, and sweet is there and it is delicious, but it is just one piece of this broader tapestry of flavors that you can enjoy and as you give yourself permission to eat natural fats and proteins, it becomes way easier to eat sweets in a SANE fashion.”

Read the Transcript

Jonathan: Hey, what’s up everybody? Are you ready to learn all about Sugar Substitutes? Jonathan Bailor and April Perry, and we are back, and we are excited to do another SANE show today. It’s going to be awesome. April, how are you doing?

April: Wonderful. Thanks, Jonathan. How are you?

Jonathan: I’m doing well. I try to do a little bit of different inflection on that intro. I try to keep people on their toes a little bit.

April: Good. I’m excited. Well, we need to be on our toes today because we’re talking about something really serious and this is sugar and even sugar substitutes. We’ve talked about this a little bit in the past, but some questions have been coming in and I’m really good at putting questions together, and you are going to answer them. Are you ready?

Jonathan: I’m ready. You’re going to throw those questions up, and I’m going to take them down!

Let’s Talk “Sugar Substitutes”

April: Here’s the main issue, the overall problem. There isn’t just one kind of sugar, and there isn’t just one kind of sugar substitutes. There are a lot of choices. There are a lot of people out there who have different messages, and ultimately, a lot of this comes down to sugar, when you are talking about going SANE because people want to eat things that are sweet, and they know the typical white cane sugar that you buy in the store isn’t good for you. So, we’re trying to figure out what is good for us and there are a lot of questions. So you acknowledge there are a lot of questions, yes?

Jonathan: I do. I’m Jonathan Bailor and I approve this message. There are a lot of questions.

April: All right. So, I’m going to go into some of the specific ones that came in from our community at SANE families. Here is number one: Could Jonathan go into the science behind the SANE sweeteners and tell the difference from sucrose, aspartame, maple syrup, which are not SANE sweeteners? Okay, take it away, Jonathan.

Jonathan: The easiest high-level way to think about this is three categories of sweeteners. There is actually a fourth category but it doesn’t have anything in it, so it is irrelevant. You could draw it like a matrix, but we’re not going to do that. There are natural caloric sweeteners, which means they are natural and they contain calories. Table sugar is natural – it is natural, tobacco is natural. Honey is a natural caloric sweetener; agave is a natural caloric sweetener.

Then there are unnatural, noncaloric sweeteners. These are the sugar substitutes we are talking about here. When I say unnatural, I mean it has been synthesized. There have been chemical changes produced in the lab. Those are things like aspartame, sucralose, the little packets you see on tables at restaurants, and there are some new packets coming.

There is a third bucket which is natural and non, or minimally caloric sweeteners. Those are things like xylitol, which is a sugar alcohol, erythritol, which is a sugar alcohol, and then things which have completely no calories that are herbs that taste kind of sweet, such as stevia and lo han guo.

April: This particular person who sent in the question said, “I recently had a friend tell me, ‘Xylitol! That is so bad for you. Just eat the real stuff and don’t eat it too often.’” What do you say about that?

Jonathan: I had a friend, the other day, say to me that the moon is made of green cheese, and I said, “Well, the moon is not made of green cheese, friend. What are you talking about?”

April: We know that. I know the moon is not made of green cheese, but if I’m saying, if Jonathan Bailor tells me to eat xylitol, and then a friend of mine says, “Oh, that’s so bad for you,” I don’t how to respond.

Jonathan: The point is that, yes, you could look anywhere, and if you ask a militant vegan online chat group they’re going to tell you that meat causes cancer, and then if you go on a paleo chat board, blah-blah-blah. So, the facts, the peer-reviewed scientific research shows that xylitol is not only not bad for you, but it is actually used in certain cases to help treat dental cavities, it is used for ear infections. There is no peer-reviewed scientific research I’ve seen that says that xylitol is meaningfully bad for you. If you over-consume it, if you consume it in ways that are very difficult to do, it can cause digestive issues, because the sugar alcohol isn’t really digested, so it will make you have to run to the bathroom.

And the idea, just eat the real stuff, but not too often – what I would do in that context is, I would say to your friend, “Why do you say that? What justification do you have for saying to eat the real stuff? How is sugar real?” Xylitol is no less real than cane sugar. Xylitol is pre-existing in birch bark and they take it out of birch bark. Sugar is found in sugar beets and sugar cane and they take it out. Now, aspartame is so unnatural, but xylitol is natural, it is found in nature, they’re just concentrating it down because you don’t want to eat chunks of birch bark, like you don’t want to eat chunks of sugar cane. These are very different than synthetic sugar substitutes.

April: One of the things that she added here is, she said, “I don’t want to be fooled.” So many of us feel like we have been fooled. We were told years ago that aspartame is a great substitution. Then we came to find out it’s actually not good for you at all. The same thing about Olestra. People were talking about that for a long time. Now we are hearing, don’t eat Olestra. We feel like we’re always being pitched with these new sugars. Bbut what you are saying, the number one sugar you recommend is erythritol. Is that the one? Which one is it that you recommend or that you personally eat the most, and which ones would you suggest we eat?

Jonathan: There are a couple of questions there. One of the questions is, how do we know we’re not being tricked? A general rule of thumb is, if it doesn’t have a track record, if it’s new, then it better have some crazy, compelling, peer-reviewed science saying that it’s not harmful, because I don’t care if it’s statins, I don’t care if it’s ephedra, I don’t care if it’s fen-phen. A lot of these new things, the test of time is the best test you could ever have. So, if you look at the test of time, consuming refined sweeteners, in any form, in the quantity that we’re consuming then in, is not good for you.

For example, people used to just drink plain water, just to call a spade a spade, to eat things that aren’t sweet. But nowadays, everything has to be sweet. We add things to water to make it sweet. So, if you want to not be tricked, the easiest way to do that is to say, what worked really, really well for many, many years for a lot of people, and let me do that, too. Sugar substitutes really are a hidden problem that are having a massive effect on obesity rates.

But now, if you want to say, “Hey, I want to take it one step further. I don’t want to be someone who is not up on technology, not up on new innovations.” The Internet hasn’t really borne out the test of time. It’s new, but that’s doesn’t mean it’s bad. But then we say, xylitol is already found in nature, erythritol is found in nature, and then there are herbs like stevia and lo han guo. Let’s be clear, they are all added sweeteners, so absolutely, you are adding sweetness to something, and sweetness does cause an insulin response, it does cause you to want more sweetness.

Sweetness isn’t bad. There is a reason we have taste buds that like the taste of sweet. But you’re right, going out of your way to sweeten a lot of things all the time with anything is probably not the best idea in the world. If you want to do that, I would recommend xylitol, erythritol, lo han guo and stevia. And there is not a best one, because it depends on what you’re doing. You can’t really bake with stevia. You need something with substance. If you need a cup of sugar in a recipe and you swap in a half teaspoon of stevia, it completely mangles the recipe, so you have to use xylitol or erythritol in that case.

April: I think that’s really helpful. One of the questions that I have, though, is that we talk a lot about eating more like grandma, how grandma cooked, or things in the past that withstood the test of time. My grandma didn’t cook with xylitol, she used sugar. So, I think that’s where we are kind of thinking, then standing the test of time, my grandma would just use a little bit of sugar. So, if you are comparing a little bit of sugar to eating xylitol occasionally, or a little bit every day, what do you say to that?

Jonathan: In the traditional world, when people ate sweets, they were used as treats, so there wasn’t a pop tart for breakfast, there wasn’t 15 sodas throughout the day, and I know 15 is an exaggeration for some people. Poison is dose-dependent. You can die from over-drinking water. It’s not as if, if you eat a tablespoon of sugar, you’re going to get diabetes. Just like if you smoke one cigarette a year, you will not get lung cancer. I’m going to go on record saying that – if you smoke one cigarette per year that will not cause you to get lung cancer. So if you want to say, I’m only going to eat 10 grams of added sweeteners per week, at that dose, it could be high-fructose corn syrup and it’s not going to do anything bad to you because it is so little of it.

April: That’s helpful. This next one is talking about the transition. What is the easiest way to transition to SANE sweeteners from all the things like white sugar, honey, maple syrup and of course the unhealthy sugar substitutes? This is an important one because I’ve actually been getting emails from a lot of people who are saying, “I’m addicted to sugar, I know I am. I don’t know how to stop, I’m frustrated with myself. I have no idea even how to transition.” I know you’ve worked with thousands of people. What have you found is the easiest way to help people start transitioning, moving into a SANE lifestyle?

Jonathan: There is a second part to this question, which is, again reiterating that a small amount of real sugar is better than anything artificial. I want to make something really clear. Sugar is no more real than xylitol is.

April: Yes, I think that’s really important.

Jonathan: Let me be really clear. Honey, agave, and maple syrup are not more natural than erythritol, xylitol, stevia or lo han guo. They are all things that are found in nature that are concentrated down.

April: Thank you for clarifying that. I love that. That’s super helpful.

Jonathan: The only things that are artificial are artificial sweeteners that are produced in the lab, such as aspartame, such as Splenda, Sweet ‘n Low – those are artificial sweeteners – and if you had to choose between using a little bit of any natural sweetener – a little bit – or an artificial sweetener, I personally would recommend using a little bit of a natural sweetener rather than an artificial sweetener, just to clarify that.

So now, what’s the transition? The transition would be to swap in, I personally think, xylitol for table sugar. Anything that you use anything else for, you swap in xylitol.

April: We’ve been doing that lately, and it’s amazing. My family can’t even tell.

Jonathan: Xylitol works the most like sucrose, which is the name for table sugar. The next step would be erythritol because it is even SANEr from a caloric perspective and how it is processed in the body than xylitol. Then you would transition to things like lo han guo and stevia, because that gets really hard because those are not big, they are not used gram for gram like sugar. But all the while, the more important thing is that the goal is to be able to derive enjoyment from food from flavors other than sweetness. These are things to use as treats for enjoyment, and if you think vegetables are gross that means that your palate has changed, because bitter is a totally valid flavor and anyone who drinks alcohol, that’s a bitter thing that you really enjoy, so sweet isn’t the only delicious flavor, there are a lot of delicious flavors.

April: So, part of the transition is going to involve how you are baking, how you are cooking, or changing some recipes, and changing the kinds of sweeteners you are using little by little. But I agree with you, I think the main thing for me, I wasn’t really addicted to sugar so I don’t know personally how that is. I ate a lot of sugar, but it wasn’t that hard for me to transition. But what I found was that the more I started trying new vegetables, I love it that I can eat a lot of protein. I have two salmon patties, or two cans of tuna sometimes. I can eat Greek yogurt. I am eating so much that, honestly, I’m not even hungry for all the desserts.

I used to think, “I want to go run down to the frozen yogurt store and get a frozen yogurt.” Now, I’m like, “I’m full from dinner, I had a huge serving of steamed vegetables I had a big dinner.” I don’t even think about it, and that’s what I think is so exciting is that you can go from needing something out of every day, needing an ice cream, or needing something, to just being really content with what I just eat.

Jonathan: That’s a huge point, April, that this is a holistic thing, so as you start to eat more vegetables, as you are full, there are biochemical reasons why eating more protein and eating more vegetables in place of sugar and starch will make you crave those other things less and less and less. It’s not just about, “Oh, get rid of sugar!” It’s about crowding out the sugar. And I want to be very clear, this is not anti-sweeteners. I have a sweet tooth, my whole family does, and I eat sweet things every single day. If I had to give up the taste of sweet to be healthy, I would probably be unhealthy because eating sweet things makes me happy.

But the difference is, for me, and I think for a lot of people who have gone SANE, eating sweets is a little bit like getting a massage. Getting a massage is awesome. It feels really good and I like it, but it’s not like I can’t function unless I get a message. It’s a really cool thing, but my life isn’t dependent on it. I can function without it. I think a lot of us, when we have that sweetener addiction, it’s like, unless I have this I can’t function. As you go SANE you’re going to transition away from that – not transition away from eating sweets, but transition away saying, “I’m going to consciously choose to eat these sweets, and then I feel great, and I feel good, and I move on.”

April: I love that. Next question. Let’s say someone likes to eat pancakes. This is a really specific question because there are some great SANE pancake recipes that use coconut flour or almond flour, some of then use protein powders. There are some really awesome SANE pancakes. But as far as what to put on them, people are struggling, because there are some sugar-free maple syrups. Or some people ask, “What can I do? Usually, I would use powdered sugar or maple syrup. I don’t want to do that.” What would you personally recommend?

Jonathan: I do want to give a quick disclaimer at the beginning here, which is, like we talk about, there are lots of good SANE substitutions in the world. But for example, there is not a SANE substitution for a Butterfinger bar. That just doesn’t exist. But there are trade-offs. So, maple syrup. How do we make SANE maple syrup? Naturally. At some point we do get to a point where we are saying, how do we take this circle and make it a square? We could fruit on it. And there are artificially sweetened maple syrups, there are maple syrups that are sweetened with xylitol. You could look for diabetic-safe maple syrups. But they may contain some of the artificial sweeteners that we talked about.

April: Actually, this is coming back to the question you just answered where you were saying that if your goal is to enjoy a pancake with maple syrup and you choose to use a little bit of an artificial sweetener because you do it maybe once a month, or once a year, and you have a tablespoon of it because that’s what you want to do, that’s your choice. I think I did hear someone say that they were able to make a syrup where they blended strawberries and xylitol in a blender and made a strawberry syrup for their pancakes, finding something different that won’t taste the same as maple syrup, but that would be a SANE solution.

Jonathan: I love that you said SANE solution. Yes, that would be a very SANE solution. If the goal here is that concentrated sweetness is something we want to be sensitive to, taking something that is already naturally sweet like strawberries, and remember that modern fruit has actually, in a lot of cases, been bred to be even sweeter. If you find an apple tree that is not part of an apple orchard, the apple is tiny and bitter. The way that apples have been bred is so that are sweet and delicious. In fact, that’s what they are called, sweet and delicious apples.

So, to take a pancake and to add something that is super sweet, what you are doing is you are creating something that is called hyper-palatability, and that is what causes over-eating. It is so amazingly delicious that you can’t control yourself. It is a little bit like when people over-stimulate their brains using illegal substances, it feels great and it is awesome, but it’s bad for you. We just need to be very sensitive to that, balancing if it’s a treat and if I feel control over it – this is crazy that Jonathan is about to say this – if it’s your birthday and you want to have pancakes with actual maple syrup on them for your birthday – rock and roll, man, enjoy the pancakes. It’s your birthday, it’s fine.

But we don’t have an obesity epidemic, nobody is diabetic, nobody is obese, and this is the grandma argument. The body is super capable of dealing with a lot of things, but what it isn’t capable of dealing with is 40-60% of our calories every single day coming from inSANE processed nonsense, which is what the average American is subjected to. So right now we’re talking about the 1%. If you want to eat a little bit of actual sugar or whatever you want, very infrequently, you’ll probably be fine.

April: Jonathan, honestly, every time I come to you with questions, I’ll be thinking, I wonder how Jonathan is going to answer, because I don’t know the answer to all these things. I love your perspective, I love the knowledge that you have, I love the way you are able to communicate in a way that makes sense, because it’s logical, what you are saying, understanding all of these things that you are talking about, that SANE sweeteners are natural.

This is just something that is not familiar to us. What are we doing is starting to change the definition of what a sweetener is in the world, we are starting to shift to a healthier point of view, healthier frame of reference, healthier things on the dinner table, on the breakfast table, that we are giving to our kids, and I am thrilled to be a part of it. So, thank you so much today, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Can I just say one more quick thing before we sign off? Part of the reason that this is going to be easier over time, and I mean that very intentionally, for the past 40 years, sweet was the only flavor we were allowed to have because salt was toxic and fat caused heart disease. If you are in your 60s and 70s now you remember a time period in which sugar was advertised as a healthy way to increase energy, because it’s low in fat. These fat-free lollypops are good for you. That’s gone.

And when you start to enjoy things like whole food fats, and you start to enjoy protein, your are diversifying your palate, and sweet is there and it is delicious, but it is just one piece of this broader tapestry of flavors that you can enjoy and as you give yourself permission to eat natural fats and proteins, it becomes way easier to eat sweets in a SANE fashion. Especially when you cut out those fattening sugar substitutes.

April: Love that. Awesome.

Jonathan: Awesome. Thank you, April. Hopefully, this was a sweet and SANE show and I hope everyone had as much of a good time as we did, learned a ton about sugar substitutes and remember – stay SANE.

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